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Dual exhaust vs Single exhaust
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lansingsportsrage.com



Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Posts: 1078

PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

monzilla80 wrote:
Everytime a rule change is made, money has to be spent to make the vehicle legal.


It isn't a rule change which effects everyone else.. no Spartan/Springport regular is going to change to dual exhaust which is restricted to the point its a disadvantage to have it.. but the exception to allow them to run, for them to make a simple change, that results in them having to spend money, not us. I'm only proposing an inexpensive way to allow them to run, experience our track, and perhaps make full change to their car and join us full time. Why is everyone so dead set against new blood.. christ, the problem is we don't have enough cars.. if the guy comes, trys it, likes it, isn't really fast enough to win because the restrictions on exception cars make him not fast enough to win, he will either change his car, keep coming and not change and not win, or stop coming. None of those results impacts us negatively and 2 of those 3 options are good for us.

Russ Potter wrote:
Are we really so hard up for cars that we need to change the rules less than one month before racing starts just to accomodate a few drivers from other tracks? If they want to come to our track they have to race under our rules. If they have to spend a little money to be legal so be it. We open up a very large can of worms when we start making rule changes at this late hour. If it appears, by the end of the season, that it will be to our advantage to change the rules for 2008, so be it. We should learn from our mistakes, changing rules for drivers from other tracks and only getting a handfull of cars while our own drivers feel the need to change to be competitive just does not work out. This seems to me a lose, lose situation. JMHO Russ


Russ, there is never enough cars.. but I agree whole heartedly that if the rules exception isn't restrictive enough that our guys feel two exhausts are better then one, then its a bad idea. The rule should be written so that two exhausts is allowed, but you wouldn't want to do it. If they come and try it, perhaps they'll like us and our facility enough to stay, if they do they will change, if they don't, we haven't lost anything.. make it so its not a lose-lose, but a win-win.

Mopar93 wrote:
If I were racing a Pure Stock at a track that allowed dual exhaust and wanted to come to Spartan or Springport to race, I'd fabricate a simple Y-pipe that would connect up to my existing dual exhaust. It would be removable so that I could easily have single or dual exhaust. Simple, easy, and not too costly. No need to redo the entire system.... I think if these guys want to race at our tracks, they will conform to our rules. We are obviously attracting them in the first place. Let's keep our existing drivers happy. I think we already have a car count building that will develop into the need for consis. That fact tends to draw more cars for some reason. -Maurice


There is so much positive buzz about Springport right now.. and Spartan too. Don't build barriers and walls and be anti-new cars/teams/drivers.. Capitalize on the forward momentum, bring them in, let them experience the A+++ facilities and staff and fans and competitors we have and they will join us UNDER our rules.. JMHO.
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monzilla80



Joined: 07 Sep 2006
Posts: 65
Location: Holt

PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why wasnt this thought of 6 months ago? Why can we not have a set list of rules? I think people would be more attracted to an institution with structure and guidence than one of unstableness and willingness to change constantly trying to please or lure drivers into it. I was attracted to Spartan and Springport buy the simple rules and regulation designed to build a Pure Stock inexpensive racing vehicle. Constant changes since last year have lead to more money being spent. More money means faster vehicle. Us without more money get left behind.

If you change a rule to please one driver and piss off others that have already pledged to show up every week, built cars over 6 months to race, and will most likely have thier families coming for support, what will you gain?

Spartan attracted me. Now rule changes and politics are detering me. Lets get some friggin structure. Some leadership. And some rules that we can build our cars by that wont change by the week to attract outsiders. I was one and I like the structure so much better.
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Sortabigg



Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 405
Location: Eaton Rapids, MI Originally from Bath MI

PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 10:49 am    Post subject: rules Reply with quote

I agree with monz, if you set rules already, live with it. All this wishy washy wavering on rules is dumb. Leave it as is, if later on in the season it is determined that it NEEDS to be changed, than at that time give everyone fair notice and it will be fine. 1 month before the season is a bit much. Maurice the Y pipe though is a great idea, i might make one just in case i wanna go race somewher else. seems pretty simple
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Russ Potter



Joined: 27 Jul 2006
Posts: 98
Location: Mason, Michigan

PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ditto Monzi and Biggy, bad idea. We do not even know how things will work out and already you want to change rules. If things do not work out with the existing rules, change them in 08.
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Mopar93



Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Posts: 938
Location: Charlotte, Michigan

PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lansingsportsrage.com wrote:
the problem is we don't have enough cars..


On the contrary... we DO have enough cars. The Pure Stock class is going to be very popular this year.

Quote:

If they come and try it, perhaps they'll like us and our facility enough to stay, if they do they will change, if they don't, we haven't lost anything..

The group of drivers (about 4-6 of them) don't want to just "try it", they want to come and race every week.

Quote:

There is so much positive buzz about Springport right now.. and Spartan too. Don't build barriers and walls and be anti-new cars/teams/drivers..

No barriers have been built yet. We're going to have fun racing this year.

-Maurice
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chuck ewing



Joined: 16 Nov 2006
Posts: 57

PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:17 pm    Post subject: Dual vs Single Reply with quote

Hey guys don't shot the messenger, I only asked because about 10 drivers from Galesberg was looking for a track to run, I also have had around 7or 8 of your drivers who asked also. Is very body that has responded RWD drivers ?Thanks Chuck
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monzilla80



Joined: 07 Sep 2006
Posts: 65
Location: Holt

PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes. RWD Pure Stock.
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Mopar93



Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Posts: 938
Location: Charlotte, Michigan

PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't drive either one. Smile

Sorry Chuck, but I have to agree with some of the guys here that want to keep the single exhaust.

I understand that there are existing cars that already have dual exhaust. But how about the engines? Do these guys from Galesburg have stock engines?

Some sort of happy medium would have to be implemented here. If the last 6 inches were 1 3/4 outside diameter, then there would be no benefit to having dual exhausts and adding the reducer extensions would be cheap to do. Take a 350 engine with each bank being 175 cubic inches. That 175 cubic inch engine would have to run a smaller outlet size than the Pony Stocks that have 153 cubic inches or less.

If I were building a RWD Pure Stock and had my choice of single exhaust with a 2 1/2 inch outlet or duals with 1 3/4 inches outlets, I'd build a single exhaust system. If it's done right, there is more torque to be gained at the right RPM with the single exhaust.

Here's what I suggest we do, and I think Patrick was implying this as well. Go ahead and allow dual exhausts on the RWD cars, but the last 6 inches MUST be no larger than 1.75 OD. Then, after about 2-3 weeks, if we figure out that it's still an advantage, write up one of the yellow slips and require single exhaust on the cars. If it's not an advantage, then we implement it into the rules. In other words, do it on a trial basis with the understanding that the exhaust might have to be changed once the season is underway.

What I would like to see is the actual performance limited to the equivalent of a single exhaust with 2 1/2 inch outlet or less.

I think that would be fair for all. For you guys who have already put single exhaust on your cars, don't worry, you are not at a disadvantage as long as we limit the outlet size on the duals.

Take it from there, Chuck. Everybody else, feel free to add more discussion. That's what this board is good for.

-Maurice
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Gusey Racing



Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Posts: 190
Location: Charlotte MI

PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I figure that the Galesburg drivers who want to race at Springport are going to need to change more than just exhaust they might have to unlock there rearends to be legal at Springport. I'm sure all of the Galesburg drivers know what they need to do to be legal at Springport.


Here's their rules.


Section 17 Street Stock Rules
Four-point harness and window net mandatory. Minimum 2 1/2 lb. working fire extinguisher. Racing seat optional but highly recommended.
Any year from 1965 or newer. No Camaros or Firebirds.
All carpet, vinyl and glass must be removed. Front glass windshield optional. Full lexon front windshield highly recommended.
Engines MUST BE STOCK. NO ENGINE MODIFIACTIONS WHAT SO EVER. Motors to stay stock. No roller rockers or roller tips. Stock cast iron exhaust manifold. A 2 1/2" exhaust diameter. Mufflers mandatory. One two barrel or one four-barrel quadrajet or Holley carburetor O.K. No dual feed or double pumpers allowed.
Engine must be in stock location with no modifications of mounts. Stock mounts.
Automatic transmission only. Must have working torque converter. Minimum 12".
Rear ends may be welded.
One drive shaft hoop.
After market steering components are allowed. All suspension front and rear must remain stock. No cutting/chopping of springs. Springs must have stock pigtails. No spacer plates or adjustments of any kind.
Gas tank must be securely fastened in trunk and painted red. Fuel cell highly recommended. Metal plate required between driver and gas tank.
Four point cage to be directly mounted on top of frame. 1 1/2" steel tubing (0.90) with gussets. Front and rear hoops allowed. Doors must be welded shut. Front hoops allowed with minimum of four bars to frame. Radiator Core support allowed to be stripped out and replaced with tubing.
Bodies must remain completely stock. Front and back bumpers to be chained to frame. Four hood pins on hood mandatory. Safety latch to be removed. No chaining or cabling of hood, it must be pinned.
No channeling of frame rails. Must be stock frame rails.
No weight of any kind added to car.
No bars in front of radiator.
8" safety wheel 2" or 3" offsets only, or white spoke. 1" lug nuts mandatory all the way around car. All other wheels must be stock reinforced. Any 70 series radial not to exceed 8" in tread width. No re-caps, light truck, trailer or bias tires allowed. NO TIRE SOAK!
17. Minimum weight before qualifying and after the feature is 3200# including the driver.




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Big Ed



Joined: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 204

PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No offense to any Galesburg drivers that may read this, but this isn't the first time we've heard about some drivers from Galesburg that want to come run Spartan or Springport. Whether it's for an invitational, or regular weekly events, it never really seems to pan out.

We have to do what's right for OUR drivers.

I'm all for trying to increase the car count, but at what expense??? We don't want to cut off our nose despite our face!!!!

Second year class, it's still growing. Rough counts last year, but it already seems improved just by the verbal participation here. Let's see what we got here before we try and change the world!!!

Just my 2 cents,

Big Ed
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Mopar93



Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Posts: 938
Location: Charlotte, Michigan

PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chuck told me the other day that the guys from Galesburg already agreed that they would put the stock spider gears back in their rear ends to make them open differentials. Not sure why they don't want to switch their exhaust though.

Like I said in my previous message, they should either put some sort of single outlet pipe added to their existing system, or if Chuck ok's it without too much feedback, add small restrictors to the dual exhaust.

I am not in favor of leaving their dual exhausts the way they currently are, especially at Springport where the straightaways are longer. But restricting them would be ok. You guys with the single exhaust will have the advantage in that case.

-Maurice
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goinincircles22



Joined: 27 Jul 2006
Posts: 191
Location: lansing

PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's my 2 cents worth. Stay with single exhaust...if duals are used run restrictors, its a quick, simple and cheap equalizer. And easy to tech.
John
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Russ Potter



Joined: 27 Jul 2006
Posts: 98
Location: Mason, Michigan

PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Come on guys, lets not change the rules this late. If they are serious about running here rather than Galesburg, let them run our existing rules. I would have to do this if I wanted to run there. If they plan to run over half the season here, modify their cars to meet our rules. If they just want to come here to see if they can spank us and go back to Galesburg, we do not need them. Making special restricting rules is not needed with the existing rules. SINGLE EXHAUST ONLY FOR 2007
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chuck ewing



Joined: 16 Nov 2006
Posts: 57

PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey,You guys are all concerned about the galesberg cars but I have had just about as many of our drivers showing they would like duals.I only asked about dual exhaust vs single to try to save some of our older cars from spending money to change from duals. Thanks :Chuck
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sorrowtim



Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 178
Location: Haslett

PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i AGREE WITH RUSS. If i was runnin in the purestock class, and there was a last minute rule change made to accomodate a group of visitors who may not even show on a regular basis, I would consider this to be a slap in the face and i would pull my car from the lineup and run elsewhere. if it happened in the ponystock class, I would ... WILL pull both my cars and go elsewhere. People already got their cars ready and from the sound of things, we have a good feild of purestocks this year. We wont have a car count problem. LEAVE THE DAMN RULES ALONE FOR '07 AND QUIT
F...in around. Its getting irrritating!! NASTYBOI
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