[torg38]

Why are the rules continuing to change? The suspension rule that was discussed at the meeting was:

a) Must be factory stock and in stock location with no alterations and must match year, make and model. Camber RF maximum 8 degrees, all other corners maximum 2 degrees.

Now the rules have been changed AFTER the meeting too:


a) Must be factory stock and in stock location with no alterations and must match year, make and model. Camber RF maximum 8 degrees, all other corners maximum 2 degrees.
b) No modifications are allowed to any front or rear suspension part including (but not limited to) axle assemblies, k-frames or frame crossmembers, control arms, struts, and spindles. Control arm mounting points, k-frame and crossmember mounting points may not be modified or relocated.
c) Removal of stabilizer bars are allowed. Addition of stabilizer bars are allowed only if original factory equipment. If stabilizer bars are used, stock unaltered mountings and mounting parts must be used.
d) Stock appearing springs front and rear must be used. Extra heavy duty, aftermarket racing or performance springs are not allowed. Left and right must be equal, including number of coils, free length, etc. Only original factory rubber spacers may be used on top or bottom of springs. If spacers are used, left and right must match. No spacers of any kind are allowed between the coils. Spring coils must not be close to binding at a standstill. Vehicle must sit reasonably level, left to right, at a standstill.
e) Stock-type shocks and struts must be used. No aftermarket racing or performance struts or shocks allowed. Modifications to shocks, struts, mounting points, and upper and lower spring mounts are not allowed. Shocks and struts must be allowed to have full free travel up and down without binding. Mounting points must be stock.


Why are the rules being changed after everyone agreed on them?????? Is someone mad that there rule didn’t get put in?? Every rule changed cost the racers money rather it’s in reworking the car or having to buy replacement parts.
THE RULES WERE ALREADY AGREED ON,
Hold another meeting or leave them as they were written for the meeting.
_________________
Effort equals results...Penske
Their is only air in my tires, Like your head...Evernham

[Mopar93]

Mark, where do you see that the rules are changed? Only the wording has been clarified to more clearly state what the definition of what "factory stock and in stock location with no alterations" means.

If something isn't clearly defined in the rulebook, somebody will surely say "It doesn't say that we CAN'T do that in the rulebook". We've all heard that before.

Study the rules the way they are written and you'll see that it simply defines what you CANNOT do to your car.

The intention of this class is to be stock. You know that as well as anyone. If you don't like the way the rules are written because of something you're doing to your car that isn't stock, who's fault is that?

Paul Zimmerman does not want this class to get carried away. He wants it to remain an affordable class and one that requires very little money to be spent on these cars to make them race-ready.

Mark: What part(s) of your car(s) has been modified and is no longer stock that is causing you to bring this up?

I don't get it. Why does stressing "stock" in this class cause so much grief?

If you really want to know, the wording that is in the rulebook was talked about and agreed upon by several track officials. It's simply a clarification. We intend to keep this class from becoming a 4-cylinder Sportsman class.

Chassis and suspensions are easy to tech because they are clearly visible and everything can easily be checked with a tape measure or a micrometer.

This class should be a low-budget class and should be designed to teach up and coming drivers. It's not intended to find out who can re-engineer and modify the chassis and suspensions to gain an unbeatable advantage.

Keep it stock and keep it simple. That will keep the costs down.

-Maurice

[lansingsportsrage.com]

Ball don't lie.

[markmantyla]

I got an idea...lets go to a 1000.00 claimer rule like all these dirt tracks do. crystal gets 30 to 45 ponys every week. Those guys are taking a STOCK car..making it safe with the cage and safety equip. and go race.

Can you guys imagine how many cars we would have if it only cost 1000 to 1500 to build a car.

If you wanna go that fast go to a FASTER class.

use common sense to make the cars more affordable and you will see the class explode.

[torg38]

Keeping the rules the same is what has allowed this class to grow. Changing rules and making exceptions it was is going to lead this class down the wrong road. Having to change cars on a year by year bias is what is keeping many people out of moving up. And not allowing others to sell cars with out making changes. My point is:The rules were agreed on in the attendance of all the drivers. Now someone has taken it upon themselves to rewrite, elaborate on the rules.
_________________
Effort equals results...Penske
Their is only air in my tires, Like your head...Evernham

[markmantyla]

seems to me to like for anyone to replace parts that were modified with STOCK PARTS should in the long run make it cheaper and easier in the long run.

in this class you should be able to build a car in a month or so. strip a car which I have done in about a week....that leaves three weeks to get all safety equip. in. is that a bad thing?

[lansingsportsrage.com]

Seems to me anyone who is replacing parts to put stock parts back on, was breaking the rules in the first place.

Ball Don't Lie.

[Gusey Racing]

The only bad thing about Crystal.
They don't get any money.
Plus this year they have to buy a $200 raceceiver radio.

[Mopar93]

The way to keep this class growing and keeping it fun and affordable is to put an end to the allowance of modifying certain stock components.

A newcomer has no clue on how to do all the trick non-stock modifications that the veterans have learned to get away with over the past few years. They get discouraged because their "stock" Pony Stock isn't fast.

This class can't grow without newcomers. So, we must cater to them any way we can. And one way is to crack down on all the stuff that is being done to get that extra half second of lap time.

This isn't changing the rules. Consider this as "controlling" the rules.

A newcomer can now build a competitive car much easier and for less money because he doesn't have to spend money on aftermarket parts and modifying various components.

Nobody has any complaints whatsoever about rules being enforced. And there is nothing in any previous rulebook that says chassis and suspension parts can be modified, altered, or in any way changed from the way they came from the factory. These cars are supposed to be stock.

Obviously, those who are complaining at this point would like to keep their cars in a non-stock configuration with various chassis and suspension components modified. Why?

If you study the rules carefully, about the only thing that will be permitted to be modified will be the springs. Here's the reasoning: When the cars are stripped and then built for racing, they are in most cases lighter than before. They will sit up too high and the suspension geometry is no longer the way the factory designed it. So, it is allowable to cut a coil from each spring to bring the car back down to where it should be as long as it's not excessive. This willl be a judgement call when the springs are teched. The springs must match left and right just like with the Pure Stocks. Replacement springs are allowed provided it's something used on a similar production application and is not considerably thicker in wire diameter than original. Again this will be a judgement call when inspected and will be researched if necessary.

The ultimate goal is to keep these cars as stock as possible and to keep the costs controlled.

Modifying these cars as has been done in the past and which has been overlooked in the past costs money. If the top ten are allowed to keep doing this, the bottom ten will have to do it also and it will cost them time and money. We don't want the bottom ten to have to spend money just because the top ten can afford it.

If you're building a new car, keep it within the rules. If your existing car is illegal, start fixing it, you've got 4 months, plenty of time. Everybody will get teched. The top 5 will be very closely scrutinized, more so than the bottom 15. Teching is what everybody wants, so don't complain when your car is constantly being looked at each and every week.

And don't think you can just leave your cars the way they are and get away with it. You're right, nobody will get sent home. We need a full field of cars. However, we have exhaust restrictors that will fit over the end of the tailpipes to restrict the exhaust on any offending car. If a car is found to be illegal, the restrictor will be added and the car will start all races from the rear. Neons will be at 1.25 and others will be 1.75 inches. These restrictors slip over the end of the existing pipe and have a flat end with a hole cut in it. They won't add any length to the exhaust. If these sizes are found to not be restrictive enough, they will be changed to smaller sizes. We will not add weight to offending cars.

This is not a Pony Sportsman class, it's called Pony Stock.

This will be a very fun class if all cars are competitive and it boils down to who can figure out the best tire pressure combinations and who has the best driving skills.

-Maurice

[Mopar93]

[Mopar93]

[Sortabigg]

You wanna get more newcomers....allow manual trans! then you'll get alot of people coming to race at spartan. I just don't understand it. The track needs to make money, racers wanna race at Spartan but can't because of a dumb rule. People are changing gears all the time at Spartan in there Ponies, so whats the difference in cost of changing gears or manual trans? Not to much if you ask around.
_________________
~~~~Steve "Big Daddy" Orta~~~~
She is gone but not forgotten.
And her sister is here!

[Mopar93]

[Sortabigg]

There is definently people from owosso that would like to race at spartan. I have a family member that wants to run spartan but has a manual trans. Also on other forums people that run manuals and rwd ponies are always wanting to race somewhere, why not accomadate? Just because 1 person busts yer balls on rules your not gonna even think about it? Everyone wins in this situation, I just fail to see what the problem is? Your reasons don't really stand up. As far as I can tell.
Why even bring up manuals for pures? Thats not even a part of this? I don't know of a whole lot pures that run manuals anyway. Not enough to change the rules, i doubt it would draw anyone with a pure stock manual rule...
oh and when i said the changing gears thing, i meant the cost of the gears not the time it takes to change them. You said before that cost was the major issue and well i kind of deflated your arguement on that. Its the same COST to change gears as it is to buy a manual trans...
_________________
~~~~Steve "Big Daddy" Orta~~~~
She is gone but not forgotten.
And her sister is here!

[Mopar93]

Manual transmissions have been taken into consideration before, discussed, and subsequently voted down for a few reasons.

The number one reason is cost. Not to the person building a car that is already equipped with a manual transmission but to those who are currently running automatics. Take two equally prepared cars, one with automatic and one with manual, the manual transmission will always win.

Those with automatics will have to switch to be competitive. That would be expensive. You would either have to buy all the parts and pieces from a junkyard or buy a donor car to get the parts. Shifter parts and linkages/cables would also be a problem installing. The pedal assemblies and clutch linkage would also be a problem. It's a lot of work.

Someone pointed out that there are 5 percent manual trans cars and 95 percent automatics. If that's true, then it's very difficult to find a donor car to get the parts.

A manual transaxle is a lot lighter than an automatic. This allows adding weight where it can be more advantageous.

A manual transaxle puts more available torque at the driving wheels. An automatic robs a lot of horsepower compared to a manual.

We have about 30 Pony Stocks already with automatics. About 20 of them run full time while the rest run part time. The rule on "no manuals" has been quite successful.

All of the above is what has been considered with this subject. I hope it helps to explain why manuals are not allowed.

-Maurice