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Pony stock tire rule

 
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torg38



Joined: 27 Jul 2006
Posts: 95

PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 5:32 pm    Post subject: Pony stock tire rule Reply with quote

Pros and Cons of switching the pony stock tire rule.


Changing of the pony stock division tire rule will result in many changes. Some being better and some to the detriment of less experienced racers.

The tire rule we are currently running is a very well worded to keep teams from buying expensive tires. Using the rule of only 70 series tires has put a cap on the tires the teams can run. Most 70 series tires are of the all season variety. Thus keeping them cheap and not allowing for performance tires that normally only come in the 60 series from being run.

60 series tires are available in very exotic compounds and sizes. Ranging from autocross to full out racing slicks. Keeping 60series tires out of the rules while unpopular is a very good idea. Currently flat rock and several other tracks allow for 60 series tires and the teams are spending $150+ per tire. While the tire might last half to a full season. $600 dollars is a huge cost when trying to assemble your first racecar.

The sumitomo tire is the current tire that the majority of the pony stock teams are running at Spartan. The sumitomo is manufactured under the parent company of Dunlop. All of the top 10 in points were running that tire this year. Being readily available from several outlets such as, Searsís auto center, Tire rack, Randyís Mobil, just to name a few. A competitive tire at $46 ea is a good deal. (Pricing current as of 12/06)

The barum tire that is being looked at is tire manufactured by Continental. They are available from discount tire for $53 each. (Pricing as of 12/06) Although the tires sizes are the same, the compounds and belt intersection angle differ greatly between tire manufactures. As per the vehicles manufactures service manual. It is advised to never mix tires of different manufactures any car, much less a race car.

Running different tires on the front or rear of a vehicle will result in unpredictable handing. Due to the spring rate differences in the tires. It is imperative that the spring rates of the tire remain the same front to rear to allow for balanced handling. The springs were designed and chosen for the vehicle with this in mind. It is an obstacle that some will over come but the inexperienced will be at a severe disadvantage.

As a result of the tire change you will make all the current teams purchase new tires. Also the teams that rely on used tires will be left behind in the scramble to find a new tire that works as good as what we are currently using. The tire rule will result in further division of the racers not closer racing

More discussions with the drivers should accompany any decision that will result in the teams having to spend large sums of money to conform to the rules. After all the tires that we already have are performing well and are being used multiple seasons while remaining competitive. The cost of racing is climbing and anything that we can do to keep a cap on it should be looked at closely and debated. The pony stock class was originally formed with cheap racing being a priority. We should make sure we donít lose sight of this. Changing rules no matter how insignificant always cost money. Keeping rules the same is the only way to insure that the cars that have been showing up will keep coming back.

.
Neonís tire sizes.
Changing tire size on the neonís is a misdirected effort. The dodge neon can fit 195 tires on it from the factory. Some neonís have run into an interference with the lower spring pocket. Which I was one of. Due to the difference in the manufacture of aftermarket struts some of the spring pockets are lower than others. While putting new struts on my car I chose the one that would clear to put on the Right front. The right front is the only strut that has any interference issues. The interference on the right front will be minimized if not eliminated by the 7 degree camber rule. Simply I had to measure two sets of struts till I found one that would work. The tire size difference is negligible. (195/70 is 24.8Ē tall The 185/70 is 24.3Ē tall) If you need to see some neonís in person please call Iím sure me and several others would love to show how easy it is to overcome this perceived interference.

Sorry for being long winded. Mg
_________________
Effort equals results...Penske
Their is only air in my tires, Like your head...Evernham


Last edited by torg38 on Wed Dec 20, 2006 5:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mopar93



Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Posts: 938
Location: Charlotte, Michigan

PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even though this topic is not an issue for me any longer, I had a hand in making the new tire rule for 2007, so I'll add my comments to this and then let those in charge take it from there.

First of all, I won't rewrite what I've already written about the reasoning behind the new tire rule. I've already stated it in detail in other message threads.

Quote:

The barum tire that is being looked at is tire manufactured by Continental.

The Barum tire was originally being looked at. It is no longer being looked at because we decided not to have a "spec" tire rule. Nobody will be forced to buy a specific tire from a specific manufacturer. The only ruling on tire brands is "no Sumitomo on the front". The Sumitomo is allowed on the rear.

Quote:

Also the teams that rely on used tires will be left behind in the scramble to find a new tire that works as good as what we are currently using.

The teams that rely on used tires will always be left behind no matter what the rule is. However, there are some pretty good used tires sitting in the junk yards. Somebody is going to get lucky and find just the right tire, dirt cheap. In 2003, on Kenny's Sundance (Jimmy's car now), just before we switched to Sumitomos, we ran Cooper tires and went 17.20's. We found them in a junk yard for ten bucks each. I don't remember right now which model Cooper it was, but I think one of them is still sitting in the junk pile outside of my shop. The Sumitomos were good for 4 tenths over the Coopers.

Quote:

Running different tires on the front or rear of a vehicle will result in unpredictable handing. Due to the spring rate differences in the tires.

With that reasoning in mind, then you should also run the same tire pressure in all four tires because different tire pressures will make each tire have a different spring rate which will result in "upredictable handling". Now, show me an experienced racer who runs the same pressure in all four tires.

Quote:

The springs were designed and chosen for the vehicle with this in mind.

I assume you are now talking about the actual springs themselves. And the last time I checked, the springs on every car nowadays is different front and rear. The front and rear of a car are two different animals. This is the same if not more so with a race car. And it can change from track to track. Different springs, different tires, different pressures, different weight distribution, etc, etc.

Quote:

More discussions with the drivers should accompany any decision that will result in the teams having to spend large sums of money to conform to the rules.

We put a limit on the amount that can be spent on each tire ($75). Plus each team will only have to buy two front tires. If they want to buy 4, that's their decision to make. But I would recommend running the Sumitomo tire on the rear, rather than running the same tires all the way around. You'll be able to go into the corner faster.

Quote:

The pony stock class was originally formed with cheap racing being a priority. We should make sure we donít lose sight of this. Changing rules no matter how insignificant always cost money. Keeping rules the same is the only way to insure that the cars that have been showing up will keep coming back.

And this new tire rule will negate the effect of having extra horsepower, therefore keeping the cost down by not encouraging anything beyond having a stock engine.

Quote:

The dodge neon came with 195 tires on it from the factory

The Dodge Neon DID NOT come with 195/70 tires from the factory. NEVER. It came with shorter 65 series tires. The 195/65 tire clears any strut that might be available as a stock replacement part.

By requiring the Neon to use a 185/70 on the front, the cost of building a Neon will be less due to not having to use a specific strut or modify a stock one. The 185 will fit under ALL stock Neon struts.

Plus, the slightly narrower 185 tire will slightly limit the handling on the Neon to take away its slight competiive advantage and help even up the competition.

I'm going to say no more on this topic because I'm slightly disgusted about it. This tire rule needs to be used in 2007. There are other reasons behind it. One is to make a better show for the fans.

Mark, rather than constantly complaining about the new tire rule, with all of your resources at the Chrysler proving grounds, and with all the knowledge surrounding you at work. Why not help all the Pony teams and come up with some ideas for suitable tires that everyone should consider using on the front and maybe even the rear?

You stirred me up, now I'm done.

-Maurice
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GO97-38-47



Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 29

PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

just leave the rule alone and keep it the same as it was last year what about these guys that allreadty baught tire what are they going to do with them Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad
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torg38



Joined: 27 Jul 2006
Posts: 95

PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My experience in vehicle dynamics has led to these conclusions. There are shared by multiple Daimler Chrysler engineers and my resources at the CPG have led me to champion against this rule. Not for it. With my access to multi-million dollar road profilers and 3-d tire modeling. The conclusion is clear. Donít mix tires on a vehicle.
Go pick up one of you service manuals and look under the suspension section. In the beginning, what does it say ďUnder no circumstance should you ever mix tires of different manufactures on your vehicleĒ If you need the page number I will get it for you.

The Pony stock field in one of the tightest in history. Changing a tire rule now will only set the people with access to tire info apart from the ones without.

The 195 tire has never had problems fitting under any of the neonís that are at Spartan. As stated previously. Some after market struts donít clear. Also some tires manufactures donít hold correct tolances. (How many tires of the same Circumference have you ever seen?)

Also if you look back I was against neonís to start with. But once the rule was in place it cost many teams, including my own to have to build new cars. Donít read my words wrong. Iím not saying the Neon it the Killer Neon. Simply parts are cheaper, Bushing are not worn out. Engines are lower mileage. Thatís all. The neon is an even match for the shadow as proven by the limited amount of feature wins the neon has. But the cost of operation for neon IS lower.

Stirred up you may be. However how much money was spent when you perused the championship??? Itís safe to say you out spent the competition. What Iím trying to do with my resources it keep the playing field level and not seen everyone off buying new and exotic tires.

Answers to it all.
A: More teching and strict enforcement of rules.
B: No conflict of interest teching. (No tech officials working for profit on others cars)
C: Engine claim rule. Not car just engine. It worked for IMCA for years.
_________________
Effort equals results...Penske
Their is only air in my tires, Like your head...Evernham
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Dennis ONeil



Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Posts: 423
Location: Eaton Rapids

PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it is not broken, don't fix it. The class has a tight growing field of cars. Leave it alone. Confused Confused Confused
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Dennis ONeil
www.oneilsauto.com

"A MIND IS LIKE A PARACHUTE.............WORKS BETTER WHEN OPEN"
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lansingsportsrage.com



Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Posts: 1078

PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm for the tire rule.

Mark... I have 4 cars that need tires.. if you have Sumitomo's you need to get rid of, I'll buy 8.

Patrick.
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Mopar93



Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Posts: 938
Location: Charlotte, Michigan

PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The revised rulebook (1-2-07) is now posted online.

The revision since 12-28-07 includes the modification of the Pony Stock tire rule. The Sumitomo tire is now allowed on the front. Neons are still limited to a 185 tire on the front.

The clarification of stock suspensions for the Ponies has also been included in this revision. Be sure to study the suspension section in the Pony Stock rules.

Suspensions are easy to tech because they are in the open. Everyone will be teched for suspensions at least once early on and again at any time during the season as needed. And as requested numerous times by many teams, the top 4 or 5 cars will be teched for suspension compliance each night. Any suspensions not conforming will be grounds for disqualification.

-Maurice
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