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Pure Stocks Next Year @ Springport (If there is a next year)
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circle8track



Joined: 06 Apr 2007
Posts: 88

PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sorry, I forgot to end with, sincerly good luck to the Springport Motor Speedway in whatever they decide to do in 2008.
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allhailfaz13



Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 39

PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

im not trying to say that u haft to put money in to tires but. who wants to compeate to b a c main car its just not fun and speed= money and pure stock is supposed to b a cheap class and its starting to b a streetstock class. which makes it so that it coast alot more and its starting to get out of hand compared to what it should be.
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Gusey Racing



Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Posts: 190
Location: Charlotte MI

PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 6:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If people have cars setting around the abc deal allows them to dig them out and be competitive or maybe they will dig them out and put them up for sale.
The 2x4 car and the 24 come to mind of cars that were back out on the track in the past two years.
I also seen at Michigan Cup that Chuck Goostry's car was for sale also.
I know if I was looking to buy another car I would try to find an old Ideal sportsman that is complete or if I wanted cheap i would buy a fwd pure stock.




One thing that I think will help with the ABC is that it will allow you to fix body panels with aluminum and not just heavy steel or orignial body parts only.

As I stated earlier I think Maurice is on the right track with this ABC idea and it allows a bunch of cars to race from other tracks and there are a lot less grey areas.

As everybody knows racing is not cheap no matter what class you run.
I think the pure stocks of the future is the fwd 6 cylinder class.

Not to make any problems
but ABC mini-stocks doesn't sound like a bad idea if you get a bunch of rwd and outlaw ones to come race.
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monzilla80



Joined: 07 Sep 2006
Posts: 65
Location: Holt

PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do the Pure Stocks really have to have stock replacment fender or body panels? I thought sheet metal fabricated panel were legal now.
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Bardenracing42



Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Posts: 334
Location: Eaton Rapids, MI

PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

allhailfaz13 wrote:
im not trying to say that u haft to put money in to tires but. who wants to compeate to b a c main car its just not fun and speed= money and pure stock is supposed to b a cheap class and its starting to b a streetstock class. which makes it so that it coast alot more and its starting to get out of hand compared to what it should be.


I am assuming this is your opinion, correct? I know a lot of people who are happy just racing against people that they are competitive with, and it wouldn't matter if it were in the b or c division. I am one of those, and would be just as happy winning (or running up front) in a b or c class.

Don't take this as a rip or discredit to your opinion, but by your logic no one should want to race unless they can run in the NASCAR Nextel/Sprint cup series because aside from that, there would always be a higher class.

The ABC class simplifies things. It makes teching much easier and less of an issue because the rules are pretty wide open. You will always be in a feature, no risk of going home early. You will be racing against cars that you are competitive with and have a decent shot of running up front. I think that if people would give it a try versus shooting it down right from the start, I think most would eventually be sold on it.
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daytonapony



Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 167

PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

circle8track wrote:
Todd, no my problem isn't that I won't have a fast A main car. My car will probably be the fastest C main car. That isn't the problem. If you read through the post you would understand. I also read through and saw the point structure. I only read the Spartan, pure stock and classifieds on here. The point is that the Pure Stock is a entry level class meaning that you don't have to have a ton of money into your car to be competitive. I have a House payment, a car payment and all my other bills and my race car is just a hobby to me. I don't need to spend $400 on tires to race. My car is legal and competitive at at least 5 race tracks that it has been to. The ABC is just going to let the cheater cars be legal and still dominate. Just for reference I bet there was more different feature winners at Spartan than there was at Springport, proving that it is more competitive. Either way, I'm done with this post, you guys do what you feel you need to and let a rookie pony driver have the biggest opinion on a topic that has nothing to do with him. Why don't we ABC the pony stocks??


Aaron,
I have re read your posts 3 times now. There is only a couple things mentioned as "problems". First, a car that is faster then about 19.5 is a cheater car. Second they ABC format would not work because there are fast cars and there are slow cars. And third we won't have any cars show up.

Reading your posts and re reading nothing stuck out as a legitimate reason why the ABC would not work. The biggest complaint you have is that there would be a big difference in times. The reason this would be bad is because no cars would show up. By opening up the rules and doing an ABC series format any RWD V8 car, be it stock or highly modified, would be able to race. A sportsman from Spartan can come out and run high in the B main on a very full night or in A main on a smaller night. A "pure stock" or another tracks equivalent would be able to run the B main, possibly C. The biggest thing is though, they CAN race. Also the fact that Spartan had more winners does not necessarily mean that it was more competetive. I know that most of the nights I was there, only one or two cars had a chance to win. When certain cars showed up they had the field covered no problem. The few regulars always got put back in the field. Proof of this would be the invitationals. How many regulars won the pure stock invitationals? That would show me they were competitive with more then 3-4 other cars.

Maurice has already posted that if you want to race your 100% legal to the T pure stock on Saturdays run them with the FWD's. Then running 19.5's you can be the fastest car and still be the "enforcer". You won't have to change a single thing and can still be competitive. Problem solved.

Your point of the Pony stocks being run in an ABC format is just funny. There are reasons why a pony stock ABC would not be nearly as good an idea as the ABC V8 format. First off is that there are not 2 different classes of the same type of cars that can be run together competitively. People in the Pony stock division also are not complaining that every car that runs in the top 3-5 are great big cheater cars. Thirdly there are not FWD 4 cylinder cars that are setup like sportsmans are. By opening up the rules into an ABC format for ponys you are not forcing anyone to make their cars faster.There is going to be the people that do it though. I am one of them. The people who do not have the know how, time, or money to make their car one of the modified cars are going to be looking to get out of the class. Where can they go from there? To get into the FWD pure stock their looking at over a grand just to buy the car. A RWD V8 car is the same or more to get into. The pony stocks are the most economical class to enter. Cars can be had for between 750 and 1000 dollars needing only minimal work. Are they race winners? No probably not. Couple the low entry cost, higher car count, and low running/maintenance costs and pony stocks are the class for the average guy to run. If you add a second division of these cars once they reach a high car count then that would be great. Trying to split a class with 15 cars is just silly.

Before trying to use my rookie status in the pony class as in insult you might want to find out why I have an opinion on this subject. If everything falls into place I shall be racing next year in the ABC series. Also keep in mind that as a rookie my worst incident was being the 3rd car in a chain reaction and getting the camber knocked out of my wheel. I did not total a car on the wall. I was also able to take a last place car and turn it into a top running contender. I went from running 22.3 to running 19.82. My car was more legal by the end of the year then it was when I got it. My running expence for the whole year was also probably about the same as the car you bought to replace your wrecked one. Including rebuilding a motor, replacing a trans, new struts, tie rod end, tires, and fuel I spent maybe 650 dollars. Include the two good sized payouts at the end of the year along with every other night and I'm in the hole for about 250-300 dollars.

The biggest thing to remember though Aaron, Springport was my home. I was there every single race night (racing or not). I was also there half or better of the practices. Events at Springport would seem to have more of an effect on me then someone who ran what half? of the races. If your going to be there to race every night then yes this would be big for you. However if you only run a limited schedule again it is not as big of a deal as your making it.
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circle8track



Joined: 06 Apr 2007
Posts: 88

PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Todd, I ran every week at Springport that I had a car. I borrowed cars after I wrecked my buick just so I could run at Springport. The car I borrowed for Spartan was a Springport car and I couldn't drive it every week. I even hauled my car with a rod knock 106 miles to support that track. I knew the motor wasn't going to last, but I brought what I had to support the track. I bet I raced more points nights at Springport this year than you did. Either way don't worry about it won't happen again. Todd, have you every built or race a V8 car?? Nobody is saying a car that is faster than 19.5 is a cheater car, I'm just saying I don't think it is right for the old street stock cars should be brought down to a pure stock and be allowed to dominate like they did. I know the work and how much motor I have in my car and there is no reason that I should be getting out motored down the back strech like I do at Springport. Even at Auto City with the cars that run 383 and 406 engines don't pull me down the staightaways like that. But you are missing my point on how many cars Springport has and what times they run. Look through some of the qualifying times from this past season and see what cars would be divided into which classes. I bet in all honesty it doesn't change the line up hardly at all.
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allhailfaz13



Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 39

PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

im not saying that everyone wants to move up all that im saying is that who relly wants to b a c main car and other people in your same class have a a main car that would make u fell like u didnt do enough and that you must not hve enough money or motor or something and i thought that the cars are going to b able to run at both tracks and a peoson that is a amain car at springport will dominate spartan and if your going to have a abc class then dont let the springport cars come unless its a invite.
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daytonapony



Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 167

PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

circle8track wrote:
Todd, I ran every week at Springport that I had a car. I borrowed cars after I wrecked my buick just so I could run at Springport. The car I borrowed for Spartan was a Springport car and I couldn't drive it every week. I even hauled my car with a rod knock 106 miles to support that track. I knew the motor wasn't going to last, but I brought what I had to support the track. I bet I raced more points nights at Springport this year than you did. Either way don't worry about it won't happen again. Todd, have you every built or race a V8 car?? Nobody is saying a car that is faster than 19.5 is a cheater car, I'm just saying I don't think it is right for the old street stock cars should be brought down to a pure stock and be allowed to dominate like they did. I know the work and how much motor I have in my car and there is no reason that I should be getting out motored down the back strech like I do at Springport. Even at Auto City with the cars that run 383 and 406 engines don't pull me down the staightaways like that. But you are missing my point on how many cars Springport has and what times they run. Look through some of the qualifying times from this past season and see what cars would be divided into which classes. I bet in all honesty it doesn't change the line up hardly at all.


Aaron you missed 4 nights of points. I missed 4 nights of points. However the first two weeks I didn't even have a car. I had no plans on being in the points race till week three. After that it took a motor someone else blew and a transmission that blew internally to keep me away. If you want to get very technical though you missed a total of 7 races, I missed...... 4. You came for points, I came for everything.

You even put in one of your posts the "fast" pure stocks run 19.0-19.2 your "legal" pure stock is running 19.5-19.6. So by saying that you were implying that anyone running low 19's is not a legal car. You getting out motored does not necessarily mean they have a huge cheater motor. It is entirely possible to build a motor that runs very well from X rpm to X rpm, pick the right gear and it will seem like your motor is alot stronger then it really is. And me not driving a V-8 has nothing to do with what we are talking about right now. You will see me in a RWD V-8 Vehicle Within 2-3 years. Next year is a very good possibility if I can work it out with getting a big new sponsor. I make very little money and between student loans, tools, gas, food, and other necessity's I don't have enough left over to build a brand new car.

I am not going to go through the times right now as it is 2:30 in the morning and I'm headed to Detroit tomorrow morning. However I will try to gather that information within a few days and try to see a break down of times. You do have to remember though Aaron by allowing more cars to be legal we will increase our car count. Thus what we had last year is not a viable reason as to why it won't work next year.

Aaron would you please in a straight to the point way, explain what your biggest complaint is with the ABC system? You have said twice now I'm not reading your posts right. Both times however that is all you say is that I'm not reading them right. Please explain it so it can't be read wrong. You do not have to put everything into it. I would just like to be able to know your main point to discuss that farther.
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daytonapony



Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 167

PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

allhailfaz13 wrote:
im not saying that everyone wants to move up all that im saying is that who relly wants to b a c main car and other people in your same class have a a main car that would make u fell like u didnt do enough and that you must not hve enough money or motor or something and i thought that the cars are going to b able to run at both tracks and a peoson that is a amain car at springport will dominate spartan and if your going to have a abc class then dont let the springport cars come unless its a invite.


Since that is a horrible mess of the English language I'm going to try and decipher it while replying.

Your making the point of why be in the C main. Correct? This is simple. If you want to run the A main, build an A main car, if you cant afford to run the A main. Be happy with winning the B main, or the C main. If you can afford a C main car then you would probably feel like you don't have enough money for an A main car. If that bothers you then go out and get more sponsors for your car. If you went by that logic then why run any car that can't contend for the win every night?

As far as running at springport and at spartan. If you have an A main car then you could very well have a very legal sportsman for spartan. Mike Ammerman, Scott Sigman, Jimmy Johnson, and Chuck Ammerman ALL made the A main against some VERY fast cars at the MI cup. ALL of those cars run at spartan with Mike Ammerman and Scott Sigman competeing for the win alot of nights. Were they the fastest A main car? No, however they were in it!! If a person wants to build a car to compete at both tracks it would be very wise for him to build it to spartans rules and not Sprinports more open rules.

The biggest thing I see with what your saying (at least what I believe your saying) is that if we have faster A main cars you will feel like a failure for not being in the A main or winning the A main. You think that all the drivers that are not contenders in the A main would be forced to pour huge amounts of money into their cars so they can win. Correct?

If that is correct I think you need to realize that if a racer has that mentality then no matter what class their in they will probably feel the same way. If their a mid pack Pure stock they will have to spend money to contend for that. If they are not the fastest sportsman then they will have to spend money there. Most racers I have talked with this year are just out to have fun within their means. I only talked to a few that were not happy if they could drive the car on the trailer at the end of the night. They felt they needed to win to have fun. Those few guys are far outnumbered by the racers who realize how fast they are and realize how much they can spend.
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Gusey Racing



Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Posts: 190
Location: Charlotte MI

PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aaron supported the track as much or more than a lot of people.

I'm still for this ABC idea.

I think the point being made is that if you show up with a mid 19 second pure stock to run ABC there is a chance that you won't be as competitive if there isn't enough cars. If you have a few cars running in the high 18's on sportsman tires in the same main as a bunch of 19-21 second cars with street tires. It isn't going to be a real exciting feature for the fans either. I don't know if it will breakdown that way or not. Don't know who's going to show up or who's building what kind of car. Just example how it could end up.

Also a another point being made was that they should have never allowed certain cars to drop down into the pures last year.
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Bardenracing42



Joined: 26 Jul 2006
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Location: Eaton Rapids, MI

PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="allhailfaz13"]im not saying that everyone wants to move up all that im saying is that who relly wants to b a c main car and other people in your same class have a a main car

If someone is a "C" car and someone else is an "A" car, they are not in the same class. That is the point people are missing. There are still three classes of rear wheel drive cars, but instead of being seperated by rules they are seperated by speed/time.

On a bit of a side note: We all have our opinions, and that is fine. But in this thread I am already beginning to see what kills racing, and that is some indication that if certain people don't get their way they won't show up. We have to keep in perspective that if Springport is open, it will be because Maurice puts in hundreds of hours pretty much free. I don't think having a tantrum because you don't like the racing format is really going to inspire the man to keep doing this. I know I am posting some thoughts on here, but let me make it clear that regardless of what is decided I will be there (provided I can afford to, because money is an issue right now) in full support of the track and the individual who is giving so much of his time to make sure we have a place that we all love to come and play at. Come on folks, we know we won't agree on everything. But can we at least agree that we want this track open in 2008 and maybe agree that even if there are some things we don't like we will all work together to make that happen?
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Sortabigg



Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 405
Location: Eaton Rapids, MI Originally from Bath MI

PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 10:01 am    Post subject: pure stock... Reply with quote

As a Mid pack pure stock, my first reaction to the ABC deal is I didn't really like it. Racing against WAAAY faster cars is not very fun. Getting your doors blown off as they go by. If I want to be more competative next season....if there is one at SMS...I'm gonna have to spend a little more money. I'm ok with being a C-Main car. I love racing and just want to be competative, Running in the back with no shred of hope on going faster....I'd rather just watch. We had alot of motor problems this season and only ran 6 or 7 races at sms. But I and April only missed a night or two all season. We love SMS and want it to be open. If the ABC deal is whats going to keep it open and get cars, I'm all for it. I know my father in law ( Rick Gokee Sr.) will have his street stock ready for next season. I's say he would be a SOLID B-Main car with his setup.
Instead of complaining about who traveled farthest and how often and so on. Why don't we all accept that Maurice has planned (tentatively) to do the ABC's and deal with it. Quit B!tchin. If you want to race at SMS. Your good. Spend more money or don't. You will still race no matter what. If you don't like it....BYE.

In my humble opinion. ABCing the pony class is a bad idea. The ponies are the most entertaining part of the evening. Leave them bee. But, I might add letting the rwd pony/mini race with a weight penalty. That lets more cars come and race that may be just "sitting around" Dan raced at Palo this last weekend on dirt and did very well against all the rwd stangs and pintos. He was the top fwd pony there and ran 7th i believe in the feature.
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lansingsportsrage.com



Joined: 26 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the point that Aaron (and some others) are trying to make about an ABC class, is the fact that you eliminate the chance for some of these cars to ever win. Hear me out..

Lets say you have the #51, #71, #32, #911, #30, #07, #2 and #8. They are all set up exactly to the pure stock rule as it is written now. And they are in the C-Main.

The #8 and the #2 finish 1st/2nd for the first 3 weeks of the season.. Well, the #07 car decides he doesn't want to finish 3rd to the #2 and #8 cars anymore.. so he picks up some aluminum intakes.

This puts him outside the "pure stock" rules, but inside the ABC rules. And he wins.. The #32 and #30 car have been improving their set up each week, getting faster and faster.. and just finish behind the #2 and #8.

Now.. the #2 and #8 aren't so good with setting up their cars, not bad, but not great.. after a couple of weeks of finishing 2nd and/or 3rd and seeing the #32 and #30 cars coming.. they decide to spend some money on some go faster parts which place them outside the current pure stock rules.. but it allows them to win again and/or keep the #30 and #32 behind them..

Meanwhile.. the #30 and #32 cars, which were speeding up every week as they got their cars dialed in.. now are back to where they started.. and they don't have any choice but to also go buy some go-fast parts to make up what they had gained when the other cars bought the go fast parts.

If the "Pure Stock" rules had been in place, they would have all been still in the slowest class.. but none of them would have spent the additional money on the go fast parts and the #30 and #32 car might have caught and passed the #07.. might have even caught the #2 and #8. The #07 has to figure out how to set up his car.. he needs to get smarter and not richer (or poorer depending how you look at it) to catch the cars in front of him.

It does seem that the ABC format will create a scenario where money might have a bigger say in how you finish then your ability to build a car to the rules and then set it up and drive it better.

I think this is where the exhaust limit and the hard tire rule will help mitigate, but I think this is where Aaron and others are coming from.

JMO.
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KT



Joined: 13 Aug 2006
Posts: 144

PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the ABC deal to work right, like it does at Flat Rock, you need 50+ cars a week. If the track only gets 25 - 30 cars then the difference in speed will be a HUGE factor. Championship night there were 16 sportsman that qualified and 17 pure stock (looks like there were 13 RWD). Fast time in the pure stocks would've been 15th fastest, 2.5 seconds slower than fast time. So what would the cut off be for the features that night? 29 cars qualified, only 7 were within 1 second of each other, only 11 within 2 seconds of each other. So again what is the cut off for the A-Main? Are you going to run 11 in the A-Main? 10 car features won't keep fans coming to the track.

Just to use an example, Aaron was .619 slower than fast time in the pure stocks that night, now throw him in with some sportsman and he is further back. I think that is the problem he is having with the ABC format, at least that is how I take his posts.
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